EL BLOG DE LA FIIAPP. Cooperación Española

In this interview, José Maté tells us about his life in Kyrgyzstan. The Chief Inspector of the National Police, currently coordinator of the EU-ACT project in the Central Asian area, has previous international experience, since he has two stays in Guinea Bissau and Timor.

How have you adapted to this country?

Much better than expected. Before embarking on the project I searched for information on the internet about the country, its people, culture, gastronomy… and what little information I did find did not correspond with the subsequent reality.

Undoubtedly, Central Asia in general, and Kyrgyzstan in particular, are largely unknown to Europeans, since they are not tourist or business destinations. An example of this is that there are only seven Spaniards living here. However, it is a very interesting country, practically virgin, where more than 90% of the territory is mountains, some more than seven thousand metres high, and with people who are open to foreigners and the changes they may introduce.

What has been the most difficult aspect to adapt to and the easiest?

The most difficult aspect for me has been the weather, because of coming from the Canary Islands and having lived in tropical places, here we have experienced winter days with temperatures of -27ºC.

The least difficult for me has been the change in the food; in Kyrgyzstan they have a completely different variety to Europe, with delicious and economical dishes. In fact, I’ve already gained weight, but since it is so cold I cannot play sports until summer.

Is this your first experience outside of Spain?

No. I was in countries like Timor and Guinea Bissau, both poorer and with more complex idiosyncrasies. In that sense I can say that my quality of life here has been better.

What is your work like and your daily routine?

It is an interesting job but difficult to do. First I must establish relationships with a lot of project beneficiaries belonging to different ministries such as Health, Justice and Interior. Each of them has different formal requirements for cooperation, so the bureaucracy is sometimes exhausting. Then, you must design a work plan that meets their demands, but that is at the same time valid and realistic, that fits in with their needs and our possibilities.

After this, you must move forward with the proposed and agreed activities, which entails its own difficulties, since in this country only Russian is spoken and all the experts who collaborate in our activities must be European. In addition, I must monitor the results and follow-up on the activities. As you can imagine, I do not have time to do everything.

What is your relationship like with headquarters in Madrid? And with your colleagues in Kyrgyzstan?

The relationship with Madrid is daily, there are a thousand things that must be coordinated and achieved and without this understanding and support it would be impossible to carry out this project. Most of it takes place by email, which is nonetheless impersonal and formal, but because of the time difference it is the most useful.

With my colleagues here, the relationship is the simplest and easiest in the world, since I only have one colleague, Zhibek, who works at the desk opposite me. Even so, there are times when we communicate by email, especially when we want to say something urgent and the other one is talking on the phone.

How would you assess your experience of working as a FIIAPP expatriate in Kyrgyzstan?

It is a positive experience because it gives me the opportunity to get to know this part of the world that I did not know anything about. It is especially interesting for my daughter, who is learning Russian in her new school and also lives with people from other cultures, religions, customs or ways of thinking; being told about something is not the same as living it.

How do you value cooperation in drug policies within the framework of the COPOLAD programme?

The broad coverage of the programme in the 33 countries of the CELAC, has presented a significant number of opportunities for cooperation between the European region and Latin America, covering all drug-related policies. COPOLAD is the first European cooperation programme to do this. While the previous programmes focused on the sector and mainly on reducing the supply of drugs, COPOLAD is based on all the aspects included in the European Union’s 2013-2020 Drug Strategy and its 2017-2020 Action Plan.

That is, we have the opportunity to support the development of balanced, evidence-based policies. We can offer practical support aimed at concepts that have recently emerged in CELAC countries. This programme is truly a public health policy and we can disseminate very positive results.

In all these tasks, we receive key contributions from multilateral agencies, such as the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), the Executive Secretariat of the Inter-American Drug Abuse Control Commission (CICAD-OAS) and the Pan American Health Organisation (PAHO) as well as bi-regional NGO networks (RIOD and IDPC).

COPOLAD promotes the inclusion of a gender approach into drug policies. How do you see this progress and what are the main challenges?

From its first phase, COPOLAD has always been a programme committed to the inclusion of the gender approach. In fact, we devoted the annual conference of 2013 in Quito, Ecuador, to the gender approach. This conference was a first opportunity to review the situation relating to key aspects in this field. As a result of the conference, a report on the situation in the participating countries was published in 2014.

Since then, some progress has been made in the theoretical recognition of the need to incorporate this approach in all areas of drug policy. COPOLAD is now assessing that progress through a new report.

The third COPOLAD annual conference is also devoted to women and drug policies. What are the problems facing the institutions involved?

Firstly, the institutions responsible for developing these policies must ensure that the measures are based on evidence. Different types of quantitative and qualitative research must be supported to guide effective interventions that are sensitive to women’s needs and priorities.

Secondly, adequate planning is required to ensure that changes are implemented in the field. Alongside this, institutions have to offer training opportunities to ensure the development of the measures included in national strategies and action plans. These include, prevention with a gender perspective, programmes to reduce damage, measures for social inclusion and reforms in the area of justice regarding drug-related crimes committed by women

Finally, policy changes must be accompanied by appropriate budget allocations for the implementation of certain measures and services.

How can the gender perspective and the empowerment of women improve the effectiveness of drug policies? What needs should be addressed?

The drugs-related problems that women face are complex and affect different social groups. Not only those in vulnerable situations, but women of all ages and conditions. This complexity requires a comprehensive approach, and no policy will be complete, balanced, holistic and effective if it fails to take into account the risk factors that affect women and men differently,

What do you think are the best practices on gender approach in Europe, Latin America and in general?

Some promising examples from the EU and the countries of Latin America and the Caribbean have been presented at this conference. Some include the evaluation of benefits derived from changes in public policies, developed programmes or new services.

I would highlight the slow but significant progress made over the last five years. At this conference, some positive data on how the new policies are contributing to improving the lives of women are encouraging. In addition to the increase in sector programmes and initiatives undertaken by the countries and multilateral institutions present.

How do you see the role of civil society in facilitating the perception of the need for a gender approach in drug policies?

For COPOLAD, according to the EU Action Plan 2017-2018, a constant dialogue must be ensured between the regional and international networks working in the field of drugs, involving civil society in the implementation and evaluation of the action plans as well as in bi-regional dialogues and cooperation programmes such as COPOLAD.

Therefore, we have a bi-regional network (RIOD) and an international one with non-governmental organisations, such as collaborating agencies. Through these, we try to support the increase in participation by civil society in each participating country

What should the focus of future initiatives regarding gender issues be?

The availability of data necessary to differentiate the specificities of drug-related problems between women and men remains limited, as is the evidence of the effectiveness of the responses made. In this context, the consideration of the gender perspective and the empowerment of women as a key element in drug policies continues to be a challenge that must be faced in practice and across the issues involved.

Therefore, research, evaluation of progress, allocation of necessary resources, training programmes and policy changes to ensure respect for women’s rights will improve their social, family, personal and health conditions. This requires a multi-sector approach capable of addressing the main challenges, ensuring coordination among agencies in which the public sector and non-governmental initiatives – led by civil society – ensure the implementation of strategies and programmes focused on equity, and provide services adapted to the individual needs of each girl and woman in our countries.

What is CIVIPOL and what does it do?

CIVIPOL is the French Ministry of the Interior’s consulting and service company. Its role is to enhance the work of experts at the international level, particularly in the context of development projects financed by the European Commission, the World Bank, etc.

In addition, the company is involved in all the areas belonging to the Ministry in France: Police, Territorial Government, Civil Security and also civil status and mine clearance.

Which sectors and geographical areas are a priority for CIVIPOL?

The priority geographical areas for CIVIPOL are those covered by the Ministry of the Interior. On the one hand, West Africa, in particular the Sahara region, and the Maghreb region and the Middle East. On the other, in recent years the company has also developed its activities, particularly in East Africa and in English-speaking Africa in general (Nigeria and Kenya, for example).

One of CIVIPOL’s main activities is managing projects financed by the European Commission. In this regard, how do you view FIIAPP and what is your relationship with the Foundation?

FIIAPP is a historic and strategic partner for CIVIPOL. The Foundation shares with CIVIPOL the objective of supporting public policies, and our staff has long maintained day-to-day relations with FIIAPP’s justice and security sectors, which are our regular contact points.

Which projects are CIVIPOL and FIIAPP currently collaborating on?

We are currently collaborating on 10 projects, mainly in the areas of security, within a wide geographical area. These projects include: strengthening the police in Myanmar; GAR-SI Sahel and the fight against organised crime in the horn of Africa. Not to mention projects that are now being prepared or negotiated, which are part of a privileged bilateral cooperation between France and Spain on security issues.

CIVIPOL and FIIAPP have recently signed an agreement for a project in Senegal. What does this agreement involve? Why work with FIIAPP?

CIVIPOL wanted to collaborate with FIIAPP because this will allow the project to benefit from the knowledge of Spanish experts in internal security issues. The agreement lays down the legal conditions setting out the rules and financial conditions for this collaboration.

What is the aim of the project in Senegal?

The project should enable Senegal’s internal security services to have better equipment to fight terrorism and organised crime and to control and monitor its borders. The project will also help to improve internal security by improving the security of the general public and their property.

Carlos Ossorio tells us about his experience as the coordinator of the cooperation project financed by the European Union to strengthen the fisheries management system in Turkey.  Until January 2017, Ossorio was the Inspector of marine fisheries for the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, Food and Environment.  That was when  FIIAPP contracted him for this twinning project.

How did you adjust to the country?

It was much simpler than I expected.  In Turkey, the Spanish and South American community, and the international community, are very active.  They strive to ensure that there are always cultural and social activities planned for each weekend.

Of course, my three daughters and my wife helped a lot, and they made it very easy for me to adjust.  I also have the support of the colleagues from Spain and my amazing Turkish colleagues.  In fact, I am extremely lucky.

What has been the most difficult thing for you, and the easiest?

There are administrative processes that take their time, and they sometimes drive you mad.  The residence permit, the moving house process and getting used to the sound of the call to prayer 5 times a day were perhaps the most difficult things for me.

What bothered me least was adjusting to the gastronomic and cultural habits in Turkey.  The Turkish people are very hospitable, fun and easy to like, and we have much in common with them, more than we think.

Is this your first experience outside of Spain?

It’s my first long-term stay abroad, lasting a year and a half, but on a renewable basis.  I have to say that the family transfer arrangements (schools, moving house, settling in) are very convenient, although they do take time.

There is an amazing linkup between Turkey and Spain, which has been  developed thanks to our “radio” Nilufer, and this makes institutional cooperation very fluid and straightforward. My experience has been unbetterable. 

What is your job like, on a day-to-day basis?

The day always begins with saying hello to one’s colleagues and then taking morning tea.  I get through up to six cups of tea a day.   The day-to-day work is intensive and there is never a break; there is always a mission to plan, a report to review or a budget change to prepare with the Madrid colleagues, or an expert mission to programme…

I usually discuss a lot of things with my Turkish colleagues, both with the Turkish coordinator, Esra, and with the Turkish project leaders, Borja and Erdinç.  I also go over future plans with my assistants, and discuss the activities we have to programme. 

What kind of relationship do you have with the headquarters in Madrid?  And with your colleagues in Turkey?

My relationship with colleagues is very good.  I am very lucky with my project colleagues: Pablo, Cristina, Esther and Sonsoles, who back me up and advise me all the time.  But there are also people in the Human Resources department, such as Sara and Ana, who are always ready to lend a hand when I need something.  These are the sections I have most to do with.

I am also very pleased with the Spanish coordinators of other projects; in Turkey, they are quite amazing, highly competent and knowledgeable.  But the key person in Turkey is Vanessa Untiedt, who is always solving problems and knows everybody.

How do you rate your experience of working as a FIIAPP country delegate in Turkey?

It’s a very positive and enriching experience in a personal sense, and above all professionally. It’s a change from my previous role, because as a marine fisheries inspector I had to take part in monitoring and inspection in ports, and in checking imported fish products from third countries.

That has enabled me to apply my knowledge in many areas of training, and in the exchange of good practice.

Is there any particular experience or anecdote you would like to mention about coming to the country? 

I have had the good luck to have fallen on my feet, and I have a group of colleagues and Turkish friends involved in fishing who have welcomed me into their gastronomic circle, the Çi Köfte Club. Every six weeks we meet at the home of one of the unmarried members of the group.

At these meetings, we eat a dish of “savoury green fishballs” that I have grown to love, consisting of cheese, salad, olives, fish and fruit, and of course we have a drink too.  Sometimes it’s the traditional drink Raki, which is similar to Spanish anise.  The ones who don’t drink alcohol accompany it with Ayran , a yogurt drink. I feel really at home in this group.

The Commissioner is responsible for the fight against people trafficking and the illegal smuggling of immigrants and fake documentation into his country. He is working on the Niger JIT Project with his Spanish and French counterparts. The project, which will last three years, is funded by the European Union and managed by FIIAPP.

What is the experience of working on and being part of the Niger Joint Investigation Team (Niger JIT) like?

Being a member of the JIT is a pleasure for me due to my multicultural and multidisciplinary background. Contact with other nationalities, such as the French and Spanish, has enriched us and given us experience by providing new ideas and new ways and methods of working on investigations. At the personal level, the cultural exchange has also been very positive, both for me and for those who are enjoying the experience.

In Europe there is a lot of discussion about migration and at times the points of view and policies of African countries are not taken into account. What are the views of the Republic of Niger?

At that level, I can make two important references to legislation referring to the fight against people trafficking in Niger. One is an Ordinance that dates from 2010, and the other a law from 2015 that organises the suppression of people trafficking and smuggling. These two Nigerien texts are really more protective than suppressive because, in addition to suppression, they include protection for and coverage of the victims.

It must be understood that there are ideas that reach the West, especially Europe, that make people think that Niger is a country that has absolutely no respect for human rights and the illegal trafficking of migrants. I think that it is quite the contrary, because, if we compare European legislation to Nigerien legislation, I think that we are more advanced in regard to coverage for the migrants who are the victims of trafficking or smuggling.

The people whom we are looking for in our investigations and seek to suppress are not the migrants but the “passeurs”.

Who are the passers?

They are the people who plan the journeys of the migrants… and they are exposed to mistreatment and even prostitution. It is not easy to uncover these cases, especially when the migrants do not see themselves as victims and do not cooperate with the organisation in any way. They consent to be the victims of this offence. We are working to fight against these phenomena, by always protecting the migrants against the passers. These passers are sentenced to terms of imprisonment that are sometimes 15 to 20 years.

When they are arrested, the passers go into preventive detention. In the case of the migrants, they are questioned about their situation and put into administrative detention if they are found to be in an irregular situation. They are treated in the most appropriate way possible so that they are cared for: their food and some basic needs are covered. Also, they are given access to their families or consulates and the media if they demand this. They receive visits and medical care and later on they are normally turned over to international organisations like the International Office for Migration (IOM) for voluntary return to their country of origin.

In the case of asylum seekers, we have what we call the Directorate General of Migration, which is part of the Ministry of the Interior. We send them directly from the Directorate of Territorial Surveillance (DST), through the International Office for Migration (IOM) or ACNUR, the UN High Commission for Refugees, so that they are taken care of and, if their application is justified, the State of Niger normally grants them asylum without any difficulty.

Migrants sometimes do not know that they are part of a people trafficking network and they do not know that there is someone earning a lot of money from their suffering. Do you know of any cases?

That is a difficult question, because there can be several answers. There are those who know that they are risking their lives, their dignity, their fortunes, and there are those who do not.

In regard to the initial exploitation by passers, who profit from moving migrants, I can give you an example of a route between Burkina Faso and Niamey. Transport costs at most 5,000 CFA francs, which is less than 5 euros, but the migrants are willing to pay over 100 euros to travel this route. They know that it is cheaper, but the passers convince them that, if they take the official route through the police, with the cases of expulsion that occur these days, they will be expelled. So, the idea has spread but it is better to trust the passers than the police.

For those who are more aware of what might happen to them, the end justifies the means. Some know that they are running a risk, but as there is a lack of job creation programmes, for example, they think it is better to die than stay at home doing nothing. Some do not know exactly what to expect because the passers make them believe that they are going to Paradise, that when they get to Europe there will be jobs waiting for them, that there are many vacancies just waiting for their arrival to be filled.

In the case of those who are victims of trafficking, very often they do consent to it,for example, in the case of prostitution. There are some people who know that they’re going to have to be prostitutes but, sometimes, they were already obliged to do so in their own countries because they had no alternative.

What do Nigeriens think of what is happening with migration and all the measures that are being implemented to prevent people from dying in the desert?

When you say “Nigeriens”, public opinion in Niger includes those who are in the migrant trafficking business. Those who are in the business think that, to date, the state has done them considerable harm, since it has hampered their activities through repression and awareness raising. There are many who want to give up trafficking but they think that they have not found a social alternative for it.

To know what public opinion in Niger is like, the answer is clear: if we look at the statistics there are very few Nigerians who are candidates for clandestine migration. However, there are many who ask why there are so many immigrants from CEDEAO countries in this type of situation, who even die in the desert. In these cases, for Nigeriens this situation has no justification.

For the passers, however, it is justified because for them the arrival of migrants in Niger is a business, and stopping it is a blow to them. It’s logical, they are like a mafia.

What are the measures that you think could prevent these people from making the decision to use this irregular system of migration?

In the first place, the suppression machine is grinding; it’s what we do every day all over the country.

The awareness-raising machine is also grinding but it’s necessary to continue raising awareness by telling people that they must find a job and not let themselves be killed or die in the desert or be exploited by passers. But specific development programmes are needed to create the greatest number of jobs possible for these people, for their individual fulfilment and social inclusion and to implement measures to prevent them from emigrating.

In this sense, there are many European companies that are suffering and that can come and invest in Africa: Africa needs them. There are raw materials and skilled manpower on the African continent. There needs to be support for the African countries, thorough investment in the industrial sector, agriculture and training to prevent much of this voluntary emigration, as there are many graduates among the migrants to Europe.

If an emigrant is, for example, an engineer, he is going to work in Europe in a job that is often far below his qualifications. If suitable conditions existed in Africa, I think that people of this kind would not migrate.

Public Defender’s Offices are key stakeholders in Latin America, for guaranteeing access to justice for incarcerated people and ensuring that they can exercise their fundamental rights. What are the main challenges to ensuring that the region’s Public Defenders are able to exercise an effective public defence?

These fall under three categories. Conceptually, although it may initially seem contradictory, Public Defence is not a support service for poor people. It is the representation of the legal protection that the State must guarantee as a basic right. Presenting it in any other way allows the State to shirk its responsibility and directly affects equality before the law, especially for the most vulnerable.

The next dimension refers to institutional aspects. The technical independence of defenders and the institutional autonomy that ensures this independence, funding, resources for hiring and training, salary equivalence with the other parties involved in the system, the capacity and funding to conduct in-house research, the provision of infrastructure that allows clients to be assisted in a suitable manner and information technologies that ensure a defence on equal terms with criminal prosecution.

Finally, the qualitative dimension aims to ensure defence standards and a system that monitors compliance with them. Public Defenders in the Americas and the Caribbean have made significant progress in this regard through AIDEF. If we did not take this aspect into account, we would be providing lawyers who would have no way of effectively representing the interests and rights of the defendants.

The EUROsociAL+  action in the area of justice is oriented towards expanding and strengthening the coverage of the assistance services provided by Public Defender’s Offices in order to humanise and dignify attention to people in vulnerable conditions. Which vulnerable groups face the greatest obstacles to accessing justice due to the limited recognition of their status?

The situation in Latin America shows us that native peoples, migrants and the prison population are the most vulnerable when it comes to their dignity and rights. The same is true for young people, women, especially those who are in prison, the LGBT population, and disabled people.–– All of them are linked by the main factor involved in vulnerability and discrimination, poverty.

At the regional level, EUROsociAL+ works in close collaboration with the Inter-American Association of Public Defenders (AIDEF), supporting progress in building common strategic reference responses and frameworks for regional public policies, the adoption of joint agreements, declarations and guidelines and the development of protocols or other common products. What is the added value of networking for the Latin American Public Defenders?

Firstly, defending the full validity and effectiveness of Human Rights and the guarantees recognised in international agreements on the subject, which is also one of AIDEF’s objectives. Acting together in a coordinated manner has a real impact on debates that it would be difficult to sustain in isolation. It allows a permanent, inter-institutional system for the coordination and cooperation of Public Defenders to be established with the aim of raising the standards of each individual defence system.

Finally, acting as a network within the framework of the Inter-American System for Human Rights notably increases the leverage of the defence institutions that succeeds in lessening the structural deficiencies that many of them have.

We are currently working with AIDEF on diagnosis and action guidelines for Public Defenders in cases of institutional violence so as to respond to cases of torture or institutional violence in prisons. According to recent diagnoses, despite the fact that more than 30 years have passed since the signing of the International and Inter-American Conventions to prevent and sanction torture, there are still major challenges in Latin America when it comes to institutional violence. Do you think that the general public in Latin America is aware of the scale of the problem of torture? How could this issue be tackled in the work done by Public Defenders?

This is a profound issue. After successive dictatorships in the region, it has been difficult to deal with serious human rights violations in democratic governments, whether that is identifying them, confronting them or even calling them by name, as it is the case with torture.

It is undoubtedly an issue on which we have taken the lead because the most frequent cases of institutional violence and torture occur at the two ends of the criminal justice process. At the beginning, following arrest, on police premises, and at the end, after a prison sentence has been handed down, in prison.

Through the projects we have carried out with EUROsociAL+ we have managed to position the issue, with the incorporation of the debate in the Inter-American Human Rights System (SIDH), through the General Resolutions of the General Assembly of the Organisation of American States (OAS) and plenary hearings of the Committee on Juridical and Political Affairs of the same institution, among other instruments.

All this has allowed the subject of imprisonment and its consequences to permeate the internal debate, along with the excessive use of provisional detention (whether as punishment in advance or as a social control mechanism), imprisonment as a central element of sentencing in the region, and in particular the institutional violence and torture in prisons that occur under these circumstances.

Finally, given the diversity of the actors involved in the area of justice and the fact that these are multi-dimensional problems, what mechanisms/instruments could be set up to improve inter-institutional and inter-sectoral coordination to implement access-to-justice policies?

Rather than creating or implementing new mechanisms or instruments, what is needed in Latin America at the moment is to consolidate and improve the existing channels to bring about good inter-institutional coordination. Strengthening the work between institutions in the area of justice and training the participants while promoting collaborative working.

This is because one of the problems we face is a lack of trust in the institutions of the justice system, not only on the part of the public, but also from those who are involved in the system.

María Luisa Domínguez, Senior Technician in Democratic Governance in the EUROsociAL+ Programme